Sworder

Originally Posted by Godzilla

The male brain is not fully developed until around 24. So we can go with that. Sure the HPTA will probably recover just fine but most young men don’t have the correct knowledge and coping skills it takes to run an AAS cycle. Look at Marcus threads he cited. Half those boys went willy nilly with AAS, no PCT and some even repeated same half ass cycle and messed themselves up. If they had the proper knowledge they might be ok.
So even though they might be ready physiologically they still fail because they don’t do things right.

Agreed!

Originally Posted by asiandude

The max level of natty test is probably preprogramed in your genes but how your body detects fluctuations must be through some chemoreceptors. Before such receptors are mature, blasting it with 10x the usual circulating test can easily wipe them out. Thats how your genetic potential will never be reached. You body will permanently assume that it already has 10x the amount of test it actually need

Chemoreceptors? receptor maturation? Respectfully, what are you talking about? I have actually heard the theory that androgen receptor sensitivity will never return but this theory has been tossed in the garbage bin a long time ago. The body won’t permanently assume that it has x10 amount of test, the word metabolize comes to mind. If the receptor isn’t occupied it isn’t occupied simple.

Originally Posted by marcus300

What I mean by your testosterone and HPTA being fully developed and matured is that its fully developed and running at peak, its finished maturing and stop growing and developing, I can’t put it simpler than that..

Ok, as you may suspect I will have to respectfully disagree. HPTA "maturation" in regards to being fully developed, this is actually adark_sideeved very early. During puberty is when the testicles starts and completes developing. In all honesty, I can’t find any evidence that this may be a problem even if you would halt development at this stage. What brings me to think about this is that sometimes the testicles aren’t descended properly. Medically we can fix this by supplying exogenous hormones to drop the testicle. What makes these two things correlate is that although "maturation" or "development" of the testicles is halted(as in AAS use) the HPTA can still function properly. So this leads to the question, if a male whose HPTA "maturation" has been halted by improper function and is later resumed to develop fully can have a properly functioning HPTA. Why can’t an AAS induced halt of development during puberty result in proper function when exogenous hormones are removed? Honestly, the main concern would be to close growth plates with too much androgens. It will be in your genes as death star & Asiandude have theorized what your internal "meter" is set at. Unless you believe that AAS damages the HPTA somehow then the whole maturation theory is Bullshit IMO!

Yes, I agree with your endo that it is a sensitive system as in it will recognize hormones at a very sensitive level and shutdown endogenous production swiftly. Is it "sensitive" in the fact that you can’t beat the living shit out of it with AAS use? Nope, because I have already said. You are not stimulating the Leydigs nor the pituitary/hypo to release anything. You are actually taking a break from your own system. This is contradicting my theory though as I think the body recognizes how much androgens have been circulating. I can’t think of any other way why AAS induced hypogonadism would happen. Since you aren’t stressing your HPTA system. You are taxing all other systems though by increasing androgens but the HPTA is shutdown(taking a break). I apologize for being blunt and crude but honestly I think it is some scare tactic bullcrap that your endo is spewing as he has no evidence to prove this. The growth plates will close with too much androgens present, there is studies on this. But theorizing on something which lacks any support and no correlating situations is blasphemy and I will call it as I smell it. I gave you an example of how halting HPTA development will not result in abnormal activity later on, this is proven.

For clarification: I am not saying that people under 25 are exempt from HPTA failure. I am saying that if there was a difference I would theorize that they would be better off and have an easier time to recover. Again, I do not advocate anybody to touch AAS unless they are willing to sacrifice their HPTA. Anybody below 23-25 shouldn’t use AAS because don’t have the mature enough mind nor a comprehensive view on reality.

The hGH doesn’t belong to the HPTA so it wouldn’t be relevant. Yes, you can use it to compare the re-sensitizing of the cells but other than that and functionally it doesn’t really work for the HPTA.

The HPTA has been jump-started in similar fashions though. Mainly a hCG blast to try to stimulate the leydigs to re-sensitize, clomid/nolva is used to try to jump-start the pit. There is no benefit to suppress the Hypo/Pit and I find it incredibly "bold" to say that cycling maintains HPTA function if proper PCT and time off is adhered to. If we would take a poll here I believe most of the guys over the age of 30 to be on TRT.

If you believe genes to predetermine the levels of hormones why would PCT change any of that? Is PCT only used to "jump-start" or do you think the body may find stasis without? PCT for a lot of guys is used just so that the recovery process is faster. The discussion of hCG can be made as well, we have it to help stimulate the leydigs so they are more responsive to LH. But what about the sertoli cells? Why aren’t more people infertile as a result of not stimulating sertoli cells? I am not discussing the notion that PCT isn’t needed I am wondering how PCT would fit in congruence with your theory.

Originally Posted by marcus300

IMHO if you use steroids before your HPTA isnt full developed and your natural test isnt maatured or runnng at peak levels you have more of a chance of causing yourself problems ie low test and not fully recovering or readark_sideng your natural test peak. I think there are more who dont fully recover than more who do. If you think different fine just give your advice to the OP but from my experience and the endo’s ive spoken to its clear its a huge problem and is causing serious issues with the younger TrueMaxders.

@Marcus3000 I have been researdark_sideng diligently but I can not find a good definition on HPTA maturation. Could you please clarify this for me? What does maturation have to do with function? What does maturation have to do with restoration of HPTA function post AAS cycle? I guess these questions are more rhetorical than anything but if you chose to answer please stay on topic.

@ death star how would "wear-and-tear" have an effect on the HPTA? If we agree on the notion that AAS cause the HPTA to fail earlier. Then what damage are you doing to the HPTA? Is it the actual atrophy which is causing it or do you believe it is from "overstimulation" of the Hypo when it is trying to sense the androgen levels? I believe the latter to be not true and rather foolish as the hypo won’t suffer damage from that but I am just throwing out options.. Also, if you could make sure to answer this one please. Since genetics are expressed through hormones, do you think we are changing the expression of genetics by using AAS? To further clarify, if your genes say your should have a certain amount of tT and you supply with exogenous; do you think that this will have an effect on future gene expression?

Originally Posted by DubStep

aside from an infection issue… ive had gear in the past with high pip one way around it is to add some lidocaine to your vial…. actually due this now alot when using test/prop at higher doses… not sure if many others do but it does work well for me..

The original synthol came with lidocaine if I remember correctly Typically if PIP is really bad from high concentrated gear I recommend getting some sterile oil and diluting it.

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

^^ That;s what i said Sarge. But apparently my name is not the right color. Hopefully others will listen up.

You still can’t read from bloodwork how much acne a person has. 12 weeks post cycle!