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Originally Posted by Sworder
What I mean by your testosterone and HPTA being fully developed and matured is that its fully developed and running at peak, its finished maturing and stop growing and developing, I can’t put it simpler than that..
If it doesn’t fully mature which can happen by shutting it down by using AAS it can effect the future function of the HPTA and never reach peak performance. Of course it may still function but it may not function at the same levels previously or the same levels what it should reach to in the future at full development. If you shutting down the HPTA and introducing hormones what the body is still developing and balancing then this can have a huge impact on restoration of the HPTA and the developing hormones. In some cases it can never fully reach the natural peak and many have symptoms of low testosterone . On the other hand some recover fine and never have a problem with their test levels but from personal experience and the people ive worked with and also the endo’s ‘Ive seen and spoken to this is a huge problem especially in the UK, infact my Endo told me its out of control and the referrals are thick and fast for teenagers having issues with low test.
I would also say alot of the younger guys lie about recovery because of the embarrassment of the symptoms, Ive had personal experience with this with a few younger guys Ive known over the years, what many do is simply go back on cycle to feel normal again and never get treatment for low test or even try and get fully recover from the HPTA.
Your not going to get one answer what is 100% correct, your not going to find one stupid study detailing this either because we are all iindividuals what respond and recover differently, of course we can use the correct precaution during the cycle and post cycle but there are still a hell of alot of complaints and damage occurring with teenagers etc using AAS. You’ll get a lot of guy stating they used young and never had a problem (many lie though) and many others stating they have low test due to cycling to young. Now I am guessing here but you must be in your low 20’s because you have the mind set of a younger TrueMaxder who hasn’t seen that much damage and your probably still using steroids anyway but in time and as the years pass by your mind set will change because of what you read and see trust me on that one.
Ive just done a quick search which took me 5 mins and just a few threads from our younger TrueMaxders having issues with their test levels after the first cycle etc, there are some variations but more or less teenagers early 20’s.
Originally Posted by marcus300Ok, as you may suspect I will have to respectfully disagree. HPTA "maturation" in regards to being fully developed, this is actually adark_sideeved very early. During puberty is when the testicles starts and completes developing. In all honesty, I can’t find any evidence that this may be a problem even if you would halt development at this stage. What brings me to think about this is that sometimes the testicles aren’t descended properly. Medically we can fix this by supplying exogenous hormones to drop the testicle. What makes these two things correlate is that although "maturation" or "development" of the testicles is halted(as in AAS use) the HPTA can still function properly. So this leads to the question, if a male whose HPTA "maturation" has been halted by improper function and is later resumed to develop fully can have a properly functioning HPTA. Why can’t an AAS induced halt of development during puberty result in proper function when exogenous hormones are removed? Honestly, the main concern would be to close growth plates with too much androgens. It will be in your genes as death star & Asiandude have theorized what your internal "meter" is set at. Unless you believe that AAS damages the HPTA somehow then the whole maturation theory is Bullshit IMO!
Yes, I agree with your endo that it is a sensitive system as in it will recognize hormones at a very sensitive level and shutdown endogenous production swiftly. Is it "sensitive" in the fact that you can’t beat the living shit out of it with AAS use? Nope, because I have already said. You are not stimulating the Leydigs nor the pituitary/hypo to release anything. You are actually taking a break from your own system. This is contradicting my theory though as I think the body recognizes how much androgens have been circulating. I can’t think of any other way why AAS induced hypogonadism would happen. Since you aren’t stressing your HPTA system. You are taxing all other systems though by increasing androgens but the HPTA is shutdown(taking a break). I apologize for being blunt and crude but honestly I think it is some scare tactic bullcrap that your endo is spewing as he has no evidence to prove this. The growth plates will close with too much androgens present, there is studies on this. But theorizing on something which lacks any support and no correlating situations is blasphemy and I will call it as I smell it. I gave you an example of how halting HPTA development will not result in abnormal activity later on, this is proven.
For clarification: I am not saying that people under 25 are exempt from HPTA failure. I am saying that if there was a difference I would theorize that they would be better off and have an easier time to recover. Again, I do not advocate anybody to touch AAS unless they are willing to sacrifice their HPTA. Anybody below 23-25 shouldn’t use AAS because don’t have the mature enough mind nor a comprehensive view on reality.
Originally Posted by SworderI talked to a Doctor (Endo) and he said the same thing – that younger guy’s HPTA recover faster
Originally Posted by GodzillaYes, this is a general consensus among many medical doctors and "bros" based on observations so if somebody states otherwise I would like a clear and logical explanation.
Originally Posted by asiandudeThe max level of natty test is probably preprogramed in your genes but how your body detects fluctuations must be through some chemoreceptors. Before such receptors are mature, blasting it with 10x the usual circulating test can easily wipe them out. Thats how your genetic potential will never be reached. You body will permanently assume that it already has 10x the amount of test it actually need
Originally Posted by asiandudeChemoreceptors? receptor maturation? Respectfully, what are you talking about? I have actually heard the theory that androgen receptor sensitivity will never return but this theory has been tossed in the garbage bin a long time ago. The body won’t permanently assume that it has x10 amount of test, the word metabolize comes to mind. If the receptor isn’t occupied it isn’t occupied simple.
Originally Posted by SworderThis is no longer a discussion. Its propaganda.
Originally Posted by marcus300^^^^very well said
Originally Posted by asiandudeLol, what chemorecptors? In the Hypothalamus? Being too general is like Marcus300’s endo. Be specific and explain yourself. Or review my 2-3 posts and argue those to the best of your knowledge. Repeating the same thing everybody else has been saying is not going to change my mind and it is still not making sense.
Edit: It has been propaganda from the get-go with unfounded accusations that the HPTA needs to grow to the age of 25 before AAS is touched. It doesn’t make sense and I have shown an example of where halting the HPTA doesn’t affect function later on in life. The only thing that is perpetuating the propaganda is lack of knowledge of what is said. I have presented my refutations and would like them argued not for somebody to keep on repeating the same propaganda.
Edit #2: The thing that really gets under my skin is the parroting going on about "underdeveloped HPTA" when there hasn’t been anything to substantiate these grounds other than generalizations that don’t even make sense. Yes, the HPTA will fail sooner or later but just because a cycle is done pre-25 doesn’t mean it will and a lot of educated people believe this to be untrue. The HPTA will recover faster when you are young..
Originally Posted by SworderThe male brain is not fully developed until around 24. So we can go with that. Sure the HPTA will probably recover just fine but most young men don’t have the correct knowledge and coping skills it takes to run an AAS cycle. Look at Marcus threads he cited. Half those boys went willy nilly with AAS, no PCT and some even repeated same half ass cycle and messed themselves up. If they had the proper knowledge they might be ok.
So even though they might be ready physiologically they still fail because they don’t do things right.
Originally Posted by GodzillaAgreed!
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