Sworder

I just saw your stats, you are skinny! Strength comes from muscle, muscle usually works against endurance. As well as speed to some extent. Faster recovery from workouts, yes, you will get that. Re-think your goals.

Baseball is more about knocking it out the park than being able to run around the bases faster?

Originally Posted by Lunk1

Sworder…one of the marks of a mature and smart man is knowing when to let something go. I am not arguing any of your beliefs, theories or facts. But wouldn’t you agree that at this point…it’s seems like an exercise in futility?

Definitely, the thread should have been locked a long time ago. Everybody is coming in throwing their 2 cents in, so I feel it would be rude not to respond.

Originally Posted by stpete

this has been clearly explained already. Marcus is right Sworder, youre a broken contradictory record. im sorry, not trying g to flame you but it’s actually true if you take a moment to re-read this thread.

It wouldn’t be considered a flame if you could please post in a manner that shows me where I am wrong. Or at least come up with a rebuttal of any sorts. I don’t believe I have contradicted myself but I may have confused people. If you wish further explanation I would be happy to provide that. Why do you think nobody has actually touched on the subject at hand and instead just keep repeating the same thing?

Previous to my other arguments why maturation doesn’t affect testosterone levels later on in life is because testosterone levels do not follow a linear curve through out life. There will be certain effects which impede your natural testosterone levels. Obesity will suppress natural testosterone levels while development of the HPTA. So lets say that 15 year old Charlie is weighing 300 pounds his testosterone levels will be inhibited by his BMI and suppressed "naturally". I believe data supports the testosterone levels being suppressed by about 30-50% something like that. I could pull a study but clearly the topic at hand isn’t even being discussed. So if obesity can suppress the HPTA to adark_sideeve what "natural" levels should be then and when the inhibition is removed(obesity) then the repressed levels will increase. So my thinking is that if AAS induced suppression is a reality before the age of 25 then testosterone levels should be able to return to normal function as well.

This example is one that in my opinion shows that suppression doesn’t effect hormones later in life.

The other example I had was that underdeveloped genitalia have been "fixed" and although there was problems in early development "normal" testosterone levels can be adark_sideeved later on in life despite this great set back.

The next example is that females have their axis as well which gets suppressed. The HPGA, when taking birth control will get suppressed to prevent pregnancy. I don’t understand if the HPGA can be suppressed at 18 and this is considered "safe" presuming that the doctors are doing it. Worthy of note, birth control for women isn’t 100% safe for the same reasons HPTA suppression isn’t 100% safe; not talking about before 25.. In general.

"How do you know where their testosterone levels might have been?" They usually just compare levels at certain ages and make educated guesses in regards to previous testosterone/LH/FSH levels as well as taking in consideration all other vitals BMI and race as well.

Yes, I agree that we might never know exactly the causation to it. What we can do is eliminate certain hypothesis which the answer seems unlikely to be; and narrow it down from there.

@Marcus300 It’s not about the amount of steroids you are doing; it’s about the disturbance of the HPTA function. If all theories considered then that would mean that the AAS does direct tissue damage or sorts. Since you are shutting down the HPTA you aren’t exhausting it. I have covered this already and nobody responded to it. It won’t matter how many cycles I have done because these facts will always remain. I don’t try to substantiate an argument on experience as I have never claimed to have any at all. I am not disputing that young guys are immortal. I am just saying that the "maturation" until 25 is unsupported and false. You claim to speak in-depth to your endo but can’t iterate a reason besides it being delicate. Which I agree upon, but not in the sense you are talking about. If you actually read through my posts you will see I have valid points and that may be why nobody has even touched on my actual arguments. I have a lot of respect for you as I have read many of your posts and I know you have tons of experience. I seem to have a habit of unconditionally debating anything regardless of their previous posts.

I am saying that HPTA suppression at any age is considered a risk. I wouldn’t personally recommend for anybody to cycle unless they were willing to sacrifice their HPTA, regardless of age. I am not disputing that under age 25 shouldn’t cycle, what I am discussing is the causes people give for not doing it. If this were a discussion then my points would be attacked rather than my persona.

If somebody wishes to actually discuss this topic which I have consistently trying to do I would be happy to further it. The only thing that seems congruent is flaming me for asking a perfectly logical question and perhaps breaking down an argument too harshly.

I am fully aware that it may seem disrespectful or arrogant but I am very passionate about discussing and learning more. The thing I have learned from this thread is that people do not wish to discuss, rather attack me personally which I have not done. That isn’t very typical for me to do as I can stand on one side of the debate and keep my composure and if overwhelming facts or logic is thrown at me I will admit my initial theory was wrong. It’s very simple for me but not everybody is as humble or willing to admit they may be wrong. It is going way past having a discussion at this point. I honestly do not even know how to respond to personal attacks or continue this discussion.

My only intention is to debate and discuss a topic, if you bring something to the table about the discussion why is it unfair that you actually back it up?

Demote or ban me if you wish but I am not the first to bow to incorrect nor unsupported data.

Originally Posted by BcK

Wow the new guys seem to be worth every dime.
Marcus has been here a long time and has practical knowledge a little respect would be nice.
Opinions aside.

I am pretty adamant about not insulting somebody personally especially in a discussion, I think it proves lack of self-control and knowledge on the topic at hand. I haven’t said anything about Marcus300’s character and I usually just look at what message is posted and not what their title under the name is. Unless it is MD The funny thing is that along with insulting me personally he included a lot of other respectable people in that their opinion is congruent with mine. Also, Swifto’s many posts include studies done on animals, that is how science is done. Matt had a great post as well based on his knowledge are you discrediting him as well? I am sorry I offended anybody but I am merely stating my opinion and ideas.

The most humorous thing is that NOBODY touched on any of my key arguments nor ideas. The only rebuttal was that "you are a kid" or "you read too many studies".

I agree that AAS can hurt youth before they are 25. It is stretdark_sideng it far though to claim that their HPTA needs to mature and most data I can find supports the opposite. So if I were to question something which lacks any logical or scientific information, I get bashed on my age. I have seen this in other threads too where one person’s post go unread and repeating the same thing over and over again is done. Read through my posts and argue the points I make. That is discussion, not pointing the finger and saying "you are too young".