powerliftmike

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  • Quote Originally Posted by ALAN_KINGSTONView
    to preserve the gains made on-cycle.

    There is no way proviron can preserve gains. It has no anabolic benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ALAN_KINGSTONView
    And yes, I can point to studies that conclusively show proviron is not suppressive to HPTA even at high dosages (150mgs/ed). You’ll find extracts of those very studies with references in most Proviron steroid profiles anyway.

    There are also studies showing halo to not be suppressive. The problem is non-aromatizing androgens like this have a small effect and can usually only be seen longer term. IMO its foolish to think that proviron can "one-up" the body and trick it. same goes for the 10mg dbol bridging theory and low dose halo.

    if you believe proviron helps you by all means use it. but any small effect proviron can have there are better means. estrogen blocking/control: SERMs/AIs. Any hardening/cutting clen and "real" AAS. wood: cialis/viagra/levitra. and yes i know what you might be saying..but cialis etc. just cover up the problem…well proviron does the same thing.

    Proviron not suppressive to HPTA is weird myth hard to explain. Im sure you can find a study that supports the claim that the authors couldnt find a reduction in FSH, LH, and GNRH but then again you can get a study for anything. does it honestly make sense to you that it wouldnt be suppressive? Its basically DHT, and DHT, although mildly, does have an inhibitory effect.

    I have used proviron several times. I think alot of benefit people get from it is psychological especially during PCT. i found it to be somewhat effective in reducing bloat, but cannot really control estrogens as people claim. can it help wood a bit? yes, remember its basically DHT.

    but all the stuff on sperm quality improvements, some miracle estrogen controller, anabolic benefit, no effect on HPTA is crap. and this SHRonin binding stuff is way overrated as well.

    the article:

    However, a brief note on proviron . What evidence is there that proviron lacks androgenic activity. The literature presents this by the absence of proviron to influence significantly infertility, erythropoiesis, lipids, and sex hormones. Except for the obsessive compulsive that needs to take a substance, thus replacing an AAS with adverse HPTA effects with one that does not, proviron is a worthless AAS, useful for nothing. Proviron will not support or provide any basis for the return of HPTA function.

    The quoted abstract from the study by Varma and Patel really does not give one any information. [Varma TR, Patel RH. The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988;26:121-8.] The study is poor from the abstract alone. Please note that the statement, "Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated," refers unidentified group. The groups in the study include, "One hundred ten patients . . . had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients . . . had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone." Nowhere is there a group with elevated levels. Nonetheless, the cited effect is a "depressing effect" not stated as significant. Knowing the fluctuation in gonadotropin levels on testing even at a P<0.05 would not be meaningful. But it does go to the point that proviron has no adverse effect on the HPTA.

    Mesterolone is useless for infertility. A year after the Varma study, 1989, the World Health Organization published a study demonstrating, "[n]o significant changes semen quality during the course of the study, apart from an increase in sperm concentration 3 months after the start of treatment. The increase was greatest among the placebo treated group, but did not differ significantly between treatment groups." [Mesterolone and idiopathic male infertility: a double-blind study. World Health Organization Task Force on the Diagnosis and Treatment of Infertility. Int J Androl 1989;12:254-64.]

    In 1991, a study concludes, "Because similar semen improvement also occurred in the placebo controls, our findings cast doubt on the possible usefulness of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idiopathic male infertility." [Gerris J, Comhaire F, Hellemans P, Peeters K, Schoonjans F. Placebo-controlled trial of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idiopathic male infertility. Fertil Steril 1991;55:603-7.]

    These confirm an earlier study from 1983. [Wang C, Chan CW, Wong KK, Yeung KK. Comparison of the effectiveness of placebo, clomiphene citrate, mesterolone, pentoxifylline, and testosterone rebound therapy for the treatment of idiopathic oligospermia. Fertil Steril 1983;40:358-65.] Treatment with the mesterolone (100 mg/day) therapy did not result in a significant increase in the mean sperm concentration or pregnancy in the partners.

    Proviron is useless in promoting erythropoiesis (formation of red blood cell elements) and bone formation (a mixed effect of testosterone through the androgen receptor and estradiol receptor), both evidence of androgenic activity. Mesterolone (100 mg/d) is ineffective in raising hemoglobin and hematocrit levels significantly from baseline in individuals with hypogonadism. The study cites that Mesterolone did not increase serum testosterone (but also did not mention that there is a decrease). [Jockenhovel F, Vogel E, Reinhardt W, Reinwein D. Effects of various modes of androgen substitution therapy on erythropoiesis. Eur J Med Res 1997;2:293-8.]

    As recent as 2003, mesterolone (100 mg/d) for 6 months merQistered to hypogonadal males failed to significantly raise bone mineral density (BMD). Treatment with testosterone undecanoate (160 mg/d), testosterone enanthate 250 mg (every 21 days), or a single subcutaneous implantation of 1,200 mg crystalline testosterone did result in BMD increases. [Schubert M, Bullmann C, Minnemann T, Reiners C, Krone W, Jockenhovel F. Osteoporosis in male hypogonadism: responses to androgen substitution differ among men with primary and secondary hypogonadism. Horm Res 2003;60:21-8.]

    Erythropoiesis and bone formation are positive aspects of androgens useful under certain clinical conditions. AAS consistently have adverse effects on lipid profiles that are generally observed as a decrease in HDL (good cholesterol). In 1999, twenty years after the study cited by MaxRep [Nikkanen V. Plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of normolipemic male patients with decreased fertility treated with mesterolone. Andrologia 1979;11:33-6.] proviron was found to adversely effect the lipid profile in hypogonadal men. The study by abstract analysis is hard to detail but an adverse effect of proviron is reported. Also, the study reports on serum testosterone levels with androgen treatments. Androgen substitution led to no significant increase of serum testosterone in the proviron group, subnormal testosterone in the testosterone undecanoate group, normal testosterone in the testosterone enanthate group, and high-normal testosterone in the crystalline testosterone group. The message is proviron did not affect the HPTA. [Jockenhovel F, Bullmann C, Schubert M, et al. Influence of various modes of androgen substitution on serum lipids and lipoproteins in hypogonadal men. Metabolism 1999;48:590-6.] The same author reports that proviron merQistration has no effect on serum FSH or testosterone. [Nikkanen V. The effects of mesterolone on the male accessory sex organs, on spermiogram, plasma testosterone and FSH. Andrologia 1978;10:299-306.]

    I have said too much already. A further review of proviron literature will not change the use of proviron as an AAS for either anabolic or androgenic effects. Bottom line: Proviron is of no use for anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by ALAN_KINGSTONView
    Masteron however binds strongly to the SHRonin, similar to Proviron, which enhances the action of testosterone.

    only difference is masteron works and proviron is worthless. look up dr. michael scally’s article on proviron. haha

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastView
    Anywhere from 300-500 a week…no more than that and for 4 -6 weeks weeks

    i always run it 8 wks. usually at 700mg/wk. i must say i think 4 wks is too little time with mast

    First I will make an assumption, then give you advice. The assumption is whatever the hell you took was NOT anavar . Nobody gains 20 lbs on anavar, and being that anavar is expensive it is common to fake. You probably got some mix of dbol and who knows what. It also makes sense because dbol would give me upset stomach…but I certaintly wasnt puking. Maybe the puking is from some contaminant in UGL shit you are taking?

    The advice is stop taking all the supplements and other medicine you are taking to try to help your stomach. Baking soda even leads to upset stomachs and diarrhea anyway. I think it would also be safe to say all the "cleansers" on the supplement market all pure shit. Not FDA regulated who knows if label is even true. So whatever liver, colon, stomach, etc cleansers you are taking stop.

    Eat real food and continue training without any of that shit in your body. You should feel much better.

    It likely just means it was prepared differently. I have tried different brands, and some hurt, some not. I have had the same source change benzyl alcohol content and it make a huge difference pain wise by itself (in either direction).

    If it’s real you should get some effects in a few weeks. You could also try getting it cold and see if the hormone "crashes", reheat by placing in a cup of hot water to redissolve. This is a crude method, but can help rule out a vial of just oil.

    If you want to gain weight replace the protein shakes with more meals. Get carb and fat intake up. At 145 lbs you want to add 10-15 lbs? Keep this in perspective: that is about 7-10% increase in your bodyweight. This takes time. You must be getting in alot of calories from whole foods. Stop spending money on dbol and supplements and get to work. It is NOT easy, but it is simple.

    Test and anadrol is a solid combination. I prefer anadrol over dbol anyday. Whatever cycle you choose from those you identified above is fine, except you stated you just ran a masteron cycle; so I would switch to something else for this one.

    Same as Marcus for me. Dbol in particular gives me upset stomach. It also seems to irritate the prostate. Drol always gave me much better strength gains and a higher work capacity. You’ll put on several pounds of water with both–which is good and bad depending on your goals. Dbol cycle is typically much cheaper if you are indifferent otherwise.

    Will you loose the bulk weight gained during cycle? Yes. Can you retain a portion of muscle? Depends. But in this case, probably no. You need time to grow muscles, on or off cycle; 2-3 wks wont do anything. Unless you need temporary bulk and strength for some event you are wasting your time with this cycle. Furthermore, what are you current stats (training, diet, goals)?
    the best would be a high androgen with little to no estrogen conversion. halo would be a good choice in my book. i would stay away from tren (bad endurance issues) or dbol

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