How do steroids at a young age really effect hormones later in life?

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  • This topic has 131 replies, 32 voices, and was last updated 4 years ago by Shsm.
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    • October 30, 2020 at 4:32 am
    Shsm
    Member
    I was talking to this man at my gym earlier today. He’s huge, so I asked him what his thoughts were on younger individuals using steroids . He says he’s been cycling ever since 17, each cycle after heavy research to ensure he carried the cycle, AI, and PCT protocols perfectly and abides by the "Time on=Time off rule. He said his blood work dictates he’s recovered completely each time and is a perfectly healthy individual.

    My question is, provided you cycle correctly and recover perfectly each time, how do steroids at a young age really effect hormones later in life?

    I don’t intend to piss anyone off with this thread. Just wanted your view on it

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    • November 16, 2020 at 2:11 am
    Sworder
    Member
    You are aware of the fact that AAS shuts down the HPTA so if your theory would be correct then the HPTA should work better as it hasn’t been used. If you are driving a car a lot that is fine, but taking AAS = putting the car in the garage. Maybe need to jump start it but other than that it should be running smoothly.

    The hGH doesn’t belong to the HPTA so it wouldn’t be relevant. Yes, you can use it to compare the re-sensitizing of the cells but other than that and functionally it doesn’t really work for the HPTA.

    The HPTA has been jump-started in similar fashions though. Mainly a hCG blast to try to stimulate the leydigs to re-sensitize, clomid/nolva is used to try to jump-start the pit. There is no benefit to suppress the Hypo/Pit and I find it incredibly "bold" to say that cycling maintains HPTA function if proper PCT and time off is adhered to. If we would take a poll here I believe most of the guys over the age of 30 to be on TRT.

    If you believe genes to predetermine the levels of hormones why would PCT change any of that? Is PCT only used to "jump-start" or do you think the body may find stasis without? PCT for a lot of guys is used just so that the recovery process is faster. The discussion of hCG can be made as well, we have it to help stimulate the leydigs so they are more responsive to LH. But what about the sertoli cells? Why aren’t more people infertile as a result of not stimulating sertoli cells? I am not discussing the notion that PCT isn’t needed I am wondering how PCT would fit in congruence with your theory.

    • November 16, 2020 at 3:08 am
    Sworder
    Member
    My theory to the HPTA/why levels start to decline:

    First which may be obvious, something wrong with the actual Hypo/Pit/Leydig cells. This one is obvious and won’t be covered.

    The other thing which seems to be supported by data I have seen. Is that the more exposure to androgens the more suppressed the HPTA will be sooner. This is seen in African-American males as they have the highest testosterone levels and also the higher 5alpha reductase enzymes(this is the enzyme used to convert testosterone to the more potent androgen DHT). Although, their testosterone levels are also the lowest as age progresses. I don’t believe there is a predetermined level which is assumed. I believe when AAS are introduced we are skewing this number grossly in that case. Anyway, this information and also the fact that AAS accelerates HPTA failure makes it logical to me that when the body is exposed to more androgens, the endogenous testosterone comes to a halt.

    This sparks another issue then, how would the body "keep" track of how much androgens are circulated? Gets me to start thinking of the l prostate. I think this is the epicenter of "keeping" track. How this "measurement" is kept track of may be in prostate hypertrophy, honestly I have no clue! But I find the notion to make sense somehow.

    The observation I have made and feel free to refute if you wish and I have not been able to explain in other way but it seems true that the more androgens you are exposed to the sooner your HPTA will fail.

    My thoughts on PCT as my previous post may imply I don’t feel it is useful: PCT will help you recover quicker. PCT may offer the needed jump-start the HPTA needs. The body may return to stasis without PCT chems but it’s a godsend crutch for your HPTA.

    I wanted to share my theory so it doesn’t seem like I am just nay-saying

    • November 16, 2020 at 4:18 am
    marcus300
    Member
    Quote Originally Posted by SworderView
    @Marcus3000 I have been researdark_sideng diligently but I can not find a good definition on HPTA maturation. Could you please clarify this for me? What does maturation have to do with function? What does maturation have to do with restoration of HPTA function post AAS cycle? I guess these questions are more rhetorical than anything but if you chose to answer please stay on topic.

    What I mean by your testosterone and HPTA being fully developed and matured is that its fully developed and running at peak, its finished maturing and stop growing and developing, I can’t put it simpler than that..

    If it doesn’t fully mature which can happen by shutting it down by using AAS it can effect the future function of the HPTA and never reach peak performance. Of course it may still function but it may not function at the same levels previously or the same levels what it should reach to in the future at full development. If you shutting down the HPTA and introducing hormones what the body is still developing and balancing then this can have a huge impact on restoration of the HPTA and the developing hormones. In some cases it can never fully reach the natural peak and many have symptoms of low testosterone . On the other hand some recover fine and never have a problem with their test levels but from personal experience and the people ive worked with and also the endo’s ‘Ive seen and spoken to this is a huge problem especially in the UK, infact my Endo told me its out of control and the referrals are thick and fast for teenagers having issues with low test.

    I would also say alot of the younger guys lie about recovery because of the embarrassment of the symptoms, Ive had personal experience with this with a few younger guys Ive known over the years, what many do is simply go back on cycle to feel normal again and never get treatment for low test or even try and get fully recover from the HPTA.

    Your not going to get one answer what is 100% correct, your not going to find one stupid study detailing this either because we are all iindividuals what respond and recover differently, of course we can use the correct precaution during the cycle and post cycle but there are still a hell of alot of complaints and damage occurring with teenagers etc using AAS. You’ll get a lot of guy stating they used young and never had a problem (many lie though) and many others stating they have low test due to cycling to young. Now I am guessing here but you must be in your low 20’s because you have the mind set of a younger TrueMaxder who hasn’t seen that much damage and your probably still using steroids anyway but in time and as the years pass by your mind set will change because of what you read and see trust me on that one.

    Ive just done a quick search which took me 5 mins and just a few threads from our younger TrueMaxders having issues with their test levels after the first cycle etc, there are some variations but more or less teenagers early 20’s.

    • November 16, 2020 at 5:39 am
    Metalject
    Member
    There are always risks regardless of your age. Personally, I take a very pro steroid stance…not an anti-steroid guy, but the idea that being 25yrs old or older is going to provide you some magical protection is misguided. You can cycle by all the standard "responsive bro protocols" but there can still be issues. You may very well still end up with low testosterone due to use once you get a little older. Of course, you may very well end up with it regardless of steroid use but in this case, you may speed it up. You also present the risk of cardiovascular damage in the long term despite supplementing responsibly. Can you take preventive measures? Absolutely, things like cholesterol can be controlled on cycle but it’s misguided to assume there’s a guarantee.

    When it comes to the young guy, in some ways this is a tough topic for me. If a 23 or 24yr old man wants to use steroids and is generally a healthy individual, I’m not going to tell him he needs to wait until he’s 25. If he’s under 23, the situation can change but the uniqueness of his situation might change the answer. You take a 18-20yr old guy, sure, the damage to the HPTA may very well be severe…then again it may not but the risk I would think would be a little higher at this age compared to a few years down the line. At the same time there is something important to remember……

    ….if an individual is an adult and granted the basic rights and responsibilities of an adult, he should be free to make his own decision. You can take the 21yr old guy and warn him of the potential problems and tell him he’s SOL when it comes to getting help from you, or you can guide him the best you can so that he reaches his goals in the safest and most efficient way possible. If he’s going to use steroids no matter what and we’re going to hold to liberty being a right held by all men, the latter is the only reasonable approach.

    • November 16, 2020 at 6:53 am
    Sworder
    Member
    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300View
    What I mean by your testosterone and HPTA being fully developed and matured is that its fully developed and running at peak, its finished maturing and stop growing and developing, I can’t put it simpler than that..

    Ok, as you may suspect I will have to respectfully disagree. HPTA "maturation" in regards to being fully developed, this is actually adark_sideeved very early. During puberty is when the testicles starts and completes developing. In all honesty, I can’t find any evidence that this may be a problem even if you would halt development at this stage. What brings me to think about this is that sometimes the testicles aren’t descended properly. Medically we can fix this by supplying exogenous hormones to drop the testicle. What makes these two things correlate is that although "maturation" or "development" of the testicles is halted(as in AAS use) the HPTA can still function properly. So this leads to the question, if a male whose HPTA "maturation" has been halted by improper function and is later resumed to develop fully can have a properly functioning HPTA. Why can’t an AAS induced halt of development during puberty result in proper function when exogenous hormones are removed? Honestly, the main concern would be to close growth plates with too much androgens. It will be in your genes as death star & Asiandude have theorized what your internal "meter" is set at. Unless you believe that AAS damages the HPTA somehow then the whole maturation theory is Bullshit IMO!

    Yes, I agree with your endo that it is a sensitive system as in it will recognize hormones at a very sensitive level and shutdown endogenous production swiftly. Is it "sensitive" in the fact that you can’t beat the living shit out of it with AAS use? Nope, because I have already said. You are not stimulating the Leydigs nor the pituitary/hypo to release anything. You are actually taking a break from your own system. This is contradicting my theory though as I think the body recognizes how much androgens have been circulating. I can’t think of any other way why AAS induced hypogonadism would happen. Since you aren’t stressing your HPTA system. You are taxing all other systems though by increasing androgens but the HPTA is shutdown(taking a break). I apologize for being blunt and crude but honestly I think it is some scare tactic bullcrap that your endo is spewing as he has no evidence to prove this. The growth plates will close with too much androgens present, there is studies on this. But theorizing on something which lacks any support and no correlating situations is blasphemy and I will call it as I smell it. I gave you an example of how halting HPTA development will not result in abnormal activity later on, this is proven.

    For clarification: I am not saying that people under 25 are exempt from HPTA failure. I am saying that if there was a difference I would theorize that they would be better off and have an easier time to recover. Again, I do not advocate anybody to touch AAS unless they are willing to sacrifice their HPTA. Anybody below 23-25 shouldn’t use AAS because don’t have the mature enough mind nor a comprehensive view on reality.

    • November 16, 2020 at 8:07 am
    Godzilla
    Member
    Quote Originally Posted by SworderView
    The HPTA is more resilient at a younger age from what the bros say!!

    Asiandude do you mind furthering your theory on the thermostat HPTA? What do you think happens to decrease levels after cycles? How does the body keep track with age? Do you alter "hormonal age" with steroids?

    I talked to a Doctor (Endo) and he said the same thing – that younger guy’s HPTA recover faster

    • November 16, 2020 at 9:27 am
    Sworder
    Member
    Quote Originally Posted by GodzillaView
    I talked to a Doctor (Endo) and he said the same thing – that younger guy’s HPTA recover faster

    Yes, this is a general consensus among many medical doctors and "bros" based on observations so if somebody states otherwise I would like a clear and logical explanation.

    • November 16, 2020 at 10:58 am
    TII
    Member
    Quote Originally Posted by asiandude
    i believe the system works like a thermostat. there is a set point at which your test level will return to whenever its too high or too low. when the HPTA is immature, this set point is not fixed yet, and cycling now may confuse the HPTA enough to wrongly set itself at a very low level. and this can be permanent.

    The max level of natty test is probably preprogramed in your genes but how your body detects fluctuations must be through some chemoreceptors. Before such receptors are mature, blasting it with 10x the usual circulating test can easily wipe them out. Thats how your genetic potential will never be reached. You body will permanently assume that it already has 10x the amount of test it actually need

    • November 16, 2020 at 11:49 am
    Sworder
    Member
    Quote Originally Posted by asiandudeView
    The max level of natty test is probably preprogramed in your genes but how your body detects fluctuations must be through some chemoreceptors. Before such receptors are mature, blasting it with 10x the usual circulating test can easily wipe them out. Thats how your genetic potential will never be reached. You body will permanently assume that it already has 10x the amount of test it actually need

    Chemoreceptors? receptor maturation? Respectfully, what are you talking about? I have actually heard the theory that androgen receptor sensitivity will never return but this theory has been tossed in the garbage bin a long time ago. The body won’t permanently assume that it has x10 amount of test, the word metabolize comes to mind. If the receptor isn’t occupied it isn’t occupied simple.

    • November 16, 2020 at 12:54 pm
    TII
    Member
    You have never heard of chemoreceptors?
    • November 16, 2020 at 1:58 pm
    TII
    Member
    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder
    Chemoreceptors? receptor maturation? Respectfully, what are you talking about? I have actually heard the theory that androgen receptor sensitivity will never return but this theory has been tossed in the garbage bin a long time ago. The body won’t permanently assume that it has x10 amount of test, the word metabolize comes to mind. If the receptor isn’t occupied it isn’t occupied simple.

    This is no longer a discussion. Its propaganda.

    • November 16, 2020 at 3:30 pm
    defender228
    Member
    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300View
    Ive no idea what your going on about now!

    IMHO if you use steroids before your HPTA isnt full developed and your natural test isnt maatured or runnng at peak levels you have more of a chance of causing yourself problems ie low test and not fully recovering or readark_sideng your natural test peak. I think there are more who dont fully recover than more who do. If you think different fine just give your advice to the OP but from my experience and the endo’s ive spoken to its clear its a huge problem and is causing serious issues with the younger TrueMaxders.

    ^^^^very well said

    • November 16, 2020 at 4:26 pm
    Sworder
    Member
    Quote Originally Posted by asiandudeView
    This is no longer a discussion. Its propaganda.

    Lol, what chemorecptors? In the Hypothalamus? Being too general is like Marcus300’s endo. Be specific and explain yourself. Or review my 2-3 posts and argue those to the best of your knowledge. Repeating the same thing everybody else has been saying is not going to change my mind and it is still not making sense.

    Edit: It has been propaganda from the get-go with unfounded accusations that the HPTA needs to grow to the age of 25 before AAS is touched. It doesn’t make sense and I have shown an example of where halting the HPTA doesn’t affect function later on in life. The only thing that is perpetuating the propaganda is lack of knowledge of what is said. I have presented my refutations and would like them argued not for somebody to keep on repeating the same propaganda.

    Edit #2: The thing that really gets under my skin is the parroting going on about "underdeveloped HPTA" when there hasn’t been anything to substantiate these grounds other than generalizations that don’t even make sense. Yes, the HPTA will fail sooner or later but just because a cycle is done pre-25 doesn’t mean it will and a lot of educated people believe this to be untrue. The HPTA will recover faster when you are young..

    • November 16, 2020 at 5:23 pm
    Godzilla
    Member
    Quote Originally Posted by SworderView
    Lol, what chemorecptors? In the Hypothalamus? Being too general is like Marcus300’s endo. Be specific and explain yourself. Or review my 2-3 posts and argue those to the best of your knowledge. Repeating the same thing everybody else has been saying is not going to change my mind and it is still not making sense.

    Edit: It has been propaganda from the get-go with unfounded accusations that the HPTA needs to grow to the age of 25 before AAS is touched. It doesn’t make sense and I have shown an example of where halting the HPTA doesn’t affect function later on in life. The only thing that is perpetuating the propaganda is lack of knowledge of what is said. I have presented my refutations and would like them argued not for somebody to keep on repeating the same propaganda.

    Edit #2: The thing that really gets under my skin is the parroting going on about "underdeveloped HPTA" when there hasn’t been anything to substantiate these grounds other than generalizations that don’t even make sense. Yes, the HPTA will fail sooner or later but just because a cycle is done pre-25 doesn’t mean it will and a lot of educated people believe this to be untrue. The HPTA will recover faster when you are young..

    The male brain is not fully developed until around 24. So we can go with that. Sure the HPTA will probably recover just fine but most young men don’t have the correct knowledge and coping skills it takes to run an AAS cycle. Look at Marcus threads he cited. Half those boys went willy nilly with AAS, no PCT and some even repeated same half ass cycle and messed themselves up. If they had the proper knowledge they might be ok.

    So even though they might be ready physiologically they still fail because they don’t do things right.

    • November 19, 2020 at 1:08 am
    Sworder
    Member
    Quote Originally Posted by GodzillaView
    The male brain is not fully developed until around 24. So we can go with that. Sure the HPTA will probably recover just fine but most young men don’t have the correct knowledge and coping skills it takes to run an AAS cycle. Look at Marcus threads he cited. Half those boys went willy nilly with AAS, no PCT and some even repeated same half ass cycle and messed themselves up. If they had the proper knowledge they might be ok.
    So even though they might be ready physiologically they still fail because they don’t do things right.

    Agreed!

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